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China regulates reincarnation

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China regulates reincarnation

Postby Karen on Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:55 am

I'd like to propose that we create a forum for reincarnation-related news. Specifically for items like this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

Aug. 20-27, 2007 issue - In one of history's more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is "an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation." But beyond the irony lies China's true motive: to cut off the influence of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled spiritual and political leader, and to quell the region's Buddhist religious establishment more than 50 years after China invaded the small Himalayan country...


(More at the link... quoting the article entire, as a certain other reincarnation forum did, is a violation of copyright law. It's particularly egregious to leave out the link. [Update Sept 3/07 -- they've added the link now... on my prompting here, I suspect.]

What's weirdest about the Chinese "institutionalizing the management of reincarnation" is that, like most Communist governments, its government is totally secular and atheist, and in fact first approached Tibet with the notion that spirituality is a form of insanity.

I predict that reincarnation will resist institutionalized management, the Dalai Lama will be reborn outside of the country as he's planning to, and when the Chinese government tries to produce its own puppet Dalai Lama inside the country, no Tibetan will believe that he's the real one. You can't institutionalize or manage belief...

Warmly,
Karen
Last edited by Karen on Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Reincarnation is a two-edged sword in which not only do you find out that there's no such thing as death – but also that there's no such thing as death ending all cares. And everything that means.” (From an email to a friend)
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Postby Karen on Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:04 am

Another point in this story jumped out at me... that 10% of born-again (ha ha) Christians believe in reincarnation. How is that possible, when they have heaven & hell drilled into them?

Read more detail about it here: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=150

...where the researcher chides people for developing their faith according to "feelings or cultural assumptions" rather than biblical teachings.

Warmly,
Karen
“Reincarnation is a two-edged sword in which not only do you find out that there's no such thing as death – but also that there's no such thing as death ending all cares. And everything that means.” (From an email to a friend)
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Postby enyeo on Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:05 pm

And how are the Chinese rule-moms going to figure out what kids are harboring fugitive monks inside their little bodies?

HA!

About the 10% bit: I would bet if surveys covered enough topics they would find everybody falls into a 10% folder somewhere and somehow. That sounds about right for someone being that much different from just about anybody else.
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Postby Karen on Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:37 pm

Hi enyeo -- welcome to RC!

enyeo wrote:And how are the Chinese rule-moms going to figure out what kids are harboring fugitive monks inside their little bodies?


To answer seriously, what they'll do is "determine" which monk is in which kid and declare any other claimants, including the real one, illegal.

As for how to prove it's their kid the particular monk is in... well, I'd be having deliciously hilarious imaginings of what sorts of arguments the lawyers would make, except that I suspect courts in that nation are of the variety best described by the Chinese words kang ah roo.

About the 10% bit: I would bet if surveys covered enough topics they would find everybody falls into a 10% folder somewhere and somehow. That sounds about right for someone being that much different from just about anybody else.


Yep. It's a good illustration of the liquidity of belief even within the same mind. It may make those who'd shepherd the flock uncomfortable, but it's human.

Warmly,
Karen
“Reincarnation is a two-edged sword in which not only do you find out that there's no such thing as death – but also that there's no such thing as death ending all cares. And everything that means.” (From an email to a friend)
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Postby enyeo on Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:50 pm

Thanks for the welcome, Karen!

I got this picture in my mind right off the bat:

Okay kid, hand over the prayer wheel! We know who you are.

Oday, oday, I giwup.

The cop is tossed a drool covered rattle.

Then he can go hop off like that kang ah roo you mentioned. With a real red face. Red, heh!

:D

I belong to the 10% of the population of men who think it is okay to wear a kilt at any time. Oh yeah! Especially right now when it's 100 down here. Utility kilts come in khaki.


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Postby Karen on Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:22 pm

Do you wear it in the truest Scots fashion, i.e. with nothing underneath?

:twisted:

The image that comes to me is this:

Witness brought in as an expert in verifying reincarnation cases: "The child is indeed the current incarnation of the monk in question, Your Honour. Observe, if you turn these two photos upside down..."

Judge: "Very convincing, Mr. Semkiw."

Prosecuting attorney: "I now call to the stand Mr. Atun Re..."

Defending attorney: "Objection! Channelled material is not admissible as evidence in an enlightened, i.e. atheist, communist court. Chairman Mao would be spinning in his grave!"

Kid in the front row: "I'm Chairman Mao and despite the works of Marx and Engels I insist that reincarnation management be institutionalized."

Atun Re through Kevin Ryerson: "It's true, he is Chairman Mao."

Oy. Maybe this needs another musical. (We do generate them around here.)

Warmly,
Karen
“Reincarnation is a two-edged sword in which not only do you find out that there's no such thing as death – but also that there's no such thing as death ending all cares. And everything that means.” (From an email to a friend)
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Postby pjt on Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:58 am

I love the idea of a thread for reincarnation news items.

Regarding the topic de jour. I used to follow the travails of the expatriate Tibetan theocracy pretty closely (like about 30 years ago) and I read an article about one of the reincarnated Buddha's being located in France somewhere near the ocean.

I'd love to hear the Dali Lama comment on this.


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Postby pjt on Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:59 am

It's so crazy it's not even easy or possible in some places to make out. But you certainly get the gist, which is, basically, spiritual oppression. A bureaucratic attempt to control what happens on the other side. (Or at least what appears to.) It just gives me chills.


On the other (more cheerful and comforting hand), I think it's likely to fail because the "other side" like nature BATS LAST.

(cue thin, quavering little crowd singing "we shall overcome")



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:)
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Postby enyeo on Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:56 am

Crack...outta the park! Yeah!

Karen, on the kilt I'm afraid I'm kind of shy in public. Which might be a good idea since we've got a nut on the council in Atlanta who thinks he can regulate what people wear .

I support anyone's right to trip over their baggy pants and break their necks or embarrass themselves when the shorts slip down if they want to. I LOVE the parade of sports bras on a summer day! I think the two groups should get together:
Express yourself! Be who you want to be! Be a different person! Change your clothes, change your whole body! We support you! Go for it.

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Postby Zetascair20086 on Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:52 am

To me that's the height of insanity, to try and regulate something they have denounced as false. If the Chinese considers reincarnation as a form of delusion or mentall illness, then essentially what they are now demanding is to be able to regulate people's delusions. Never ceases to amaze me.
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Postby Brooklynfan on Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:55 am

Its a political ploy, pure and simple, they want to be able to control the Tibetans, and putting someone who will be their puppet as the Dali Lama is the easiest way to do it.

At very least, its going to create a rift in the religion, if they name one and the true Dali Lama is found, at most they will have gained control of an entire religion thats been a pain in their ass for a looong time.

As for utility kilts.. they rock. Personally I like the woodland camo one... I wish theyd make it in VN tiger stripe pattern...
But youre right, people seem to have this taboo nowadays about nudity. Ive found out first hand that people seem to get real offended when they can see what colour youre boxers are.

My thought is if they dont want to know, they shouldnt be looking.

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Postby pjt on Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:46 pm

Brooklynfan wrote:Its a political ploy, pure and simple, they want to be able to control the Tibetans, and putting someone who will be their puppet as the Dali Lama is the easiest way to do it.

At very least, its going to create a rift in the religion, if they name one and the true Dali Lama is found, at most they will have gained control of an entire religion thats been a pain in their ass for a looong time.Wilhelm


In essence it's making people who have a certain belief system register. Sounds a little familiar, and it's not a sound I'm too wild about (well, maybe I GET wild about it).

In any kind of dictatorship, it would just be prudent to keep an eye on anyone "important" or who had some innate type of superior power (and I think awareness of past lives generally looks like an extraordinary ability) that was reborn. For example, anyone with a past life history of rebellion or revolution could be an increased risk for more of the same (you don't even need to ask me how I know this). :oops:

It's one of the basic problems that comes with too much information in the hands of people without spiritual maturity or even basic scruples. The miracle of far memory becomes yet another knowledge base that can be misused by the unenlightened to maintain control. It perfectly illustrates the librarian's (secret) motto, "Knowledge is Power."

My concerns about this aren't really a new wrinkle. Some of this "knowledge" has been around for a long time, but it's been kept secret and thus hard to access.

Hopefully, it would never get that evil here in the land of the semi free. But by record, this government will do just about anything it takes to further it's temporal interests including a whole bunch of repressive and totalitarian machinations, just like Hitler, just like Mao and of course, just like Saddam, who was put into power by the CIA in order to check the Iranians back in the 1970's.

I read that the yogi's viewed knowledge of past lives as a distracting side-effect of spiritual awakening (one of the siddhi's). As ever the crucial focus of earthly life is merely to treat others with an appropriate level of respect, not become a master of the universe.

It's heartening to me, that the American Psychological Association has forbade their members from participating in government torture. Maybe we're not all a bunch of ravening wolves after all! :D
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Postby Brooklynfan on Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:44 pm

In essence it's making people who have a certain belief system register. Sounds a little familiar, and it's not a sound I'm too wild about (well, maybe I GET wild about it).


Yes. The best way to control a population is to know who and where they are. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

In any kind of dictatorship, it would just be prudent to keep an eye on anyone "important" or who had some innate type of superior power (and I think awareness of past lives generally looks like an extraordinary ability) that was reborn. For example, anyone with a past life history of rebellion or revolution could be an increased risk for more of the same (you don't even need to ask me how I know this). :oops:


True, but I still think its more of a political and control issue than a communist recognition of the plausibility of reincarnation.

It's one of the basic problems that comes with too much information in the hands of people without spiritual maturity or even basic scruples. The miracle of far memory becomes yet another knowledge base that can be misused by the unenlightened to maintain control. It perfectly illustrates the librarian's (secret) motto, "Knowledge is Power."


If it can be used, it can be misused, thats something thats been proven again and again. Although traditionally spiritual matters have been proven rather slippery when it comes to regulation. Take a look at the nazis attempt to surpress Christianity among the masses by creating a state religion where Hitler was the central deity. Even with those measures in place, and a heavy push for members of the Wehrmacht to declare themselves Gottglaubig {God-Believing} there was still a large number that refused and kept their old religion (I know my Soldbuch said I was Catholic.. because I was). Most of the time if the movement is strong enough it will simply go underground.

BTW, that motto isnt from the "Librarian" series is it? I didnt have the... opportunity to see the first one, but the second one was almost unbearable. Ive heard of swinging low and loose with lore, but that was worse than "From Hell"...

My concerns about this aren't really a new wrinkle. Some of this "knowledge" has been around for a long time, but it's been kept secret and thus hard to access.


Perhaps im daft, what knowledge are you talking about? How to use knowledge and secrets against people? how and who has kept it under wraps? Or is it more of a open secret, as they say?

Hopefully, it would never get that evil here in the land of the semi free. But by record, this government will do just about anything it takes to further it's temporal interests including a whole bunch of repressive and totalitarian machinations, just like Hitler, just like Mao and of course, just like Saddam, who was put into power by the CIA in order to check the Iranians back in the 1970's.


Yes, but I think in some ways were lucky. One of the good (and bad) things about America is that we have always been fighters, and even though the country is now filled with a bunch of tv-addicted-ipod-wearing-naieve-teenagers and twentysomethings, I think that even they will have a breaking point if things go too far. I hope it would never get that bad, but if it does, I think we may be surprised at what happens.

then again, I have been accused of being too much of an optimist when it comes to this country in the past.

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Postby pjt on Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:23 am

True, but I still think its more of a political and control issue than a communist recognition of the plausibility of reincarnation.


Oh, I agree but I'm talking about the NEXT step. If reincarnation ever makes it into the common reality of say - biology, it would be the problem to watch IMHO.

If it can be used, it can be misused, thats something thats been proven again and again. Although traditionally spiritual matters have been proven rather slippery when it comes to regulation...(snip) ... Most of the time if the movement is strong enough it will simply go underground.


Again, I agree. You have an intelligent take on it. The Christian underground was definitely a player in the end of the USSR. The Chinese are very defensive about all religious expressions (I have some cousins that have done missionary work there).

BTW, that motto isnt from the "Librarian" series is it?


Well no. I just made it up. Good librarians all know it though. :lol:

I didnt have the... opportunity to see the first one, but the second one was almost unbearable.


What pray tell is the "Librarian" series. I'm not familiar with it.

Perhaps im daft, what knowledge are you talking about? How to use knowledge and secrets against people? how and who has kept it under wraps? Or is it more of a open secret, as they say?


I'm referring to the knowledge of reincarnation. Espousing it tended to cause violent death during many times and places over the past 2000 years or so. A quick example is the esoteric Kabbalah which taught (among other things) that the Bible was the story of the journey of one soul towards... self realization and liberation from karma.

Yes, but I think in some ways were lucky. One of the good (and bad) things about America is that we have always been fighters, and even though the country is now filled with a bunch of tv-addicted-ipod-wearing-naieve-teenagers and twentysomethings, I think that even they will have a breaking point if things go too far. I hope it would never get that bad, but if it does, I think we may be surprised at what happens.

then again, I have been accused of being too much of an optimist when it comes to this country in the past.


IMHO (again) there are a lot of really fine people in modern America. The kids are pretty spoiled, but they don't really run things. I think the biggest problem at least in my lifetime is that most of us are too optimistic about the government. This government works best with lots of scrutiny and lots of informed participation. Just letting it run on it's own has made it progressively less and less representative of the will of the people. It's still pretty self-correcting though (Thank mercy)


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Postby pjt on Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:31 am

Karen wrote:Another point in this story jumped out at me... that 10% of born-again (ha ha) Christians believe in reincarnation. How is that possible, when they have heaven & hell drilled into them?

Read more detail about it here: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=150

...where the researcher chides people for developing their faith according to "feelings or cultural assumptions" rather than biblical teachings.

Warmly,
Karen


Many thanks for sharing this. I guess it's like the man says, "Contradiction reigns..." I'd be curious to know how all this plays out in Western Europe - they're usually a step or five ahead of us in social trends. From what I gather, organized religion is more and more on the wane in most countries there.

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