reincarnationcafe

[Karen]

For those who are new, I am a founding member of RC and a former frequent poster, and have been more of a lurker of late due to the rather extreme pull of a different, but not unrelated, project.

I'm sad to see there's been some unpleasantness but I'm not surprised that it centres around the number one hot-button issue of people who claim FPLs -- "Is it for real"? -- and the related issue of, "I don't believe you and in fact think you're a raving loon." Which you can't just say, even if you're sure. So -- how to deal with this?

I'm going to throw out a bunch of suggestions, which you all may use or not use as you see fit, in the hope of forestalling conflicts in the future.

For those making claims:

It is crucial to detach your PL journey from your ego. If you need to feel you were someone extraordinary in a past life to feel worthwhile in this one, you absolutely cannot be objective about your evidence, and what you should be working on is not uncovering memories but on re-establishing self-worth. As a human being you have intrinsic worth; you are, just by the fact of being a human being, worthy of respect, consideration and inclusion on the part of all other human beings. If you don't feel that you are, and therefore have a desperate urge to prove you are somehow superior, it's not because you're not somehow superior. It's because someone important to you (probably one or more your parents) denied you respect, consideration and inclusion when you were young. That is where you need to concentrate your spiritual-growth and healing efforts. You have to separate out self-image from PL status because they are separate issues, joined only by emotion.

If you sort out the self-esteem issue, the rest will clarify. I know this from personal experience after having had enough of a breakthrough in early February that I stopped doing work on this-life traumas entirely. After 25 years or so (there was a lot) it was finally done. If you can get to the point at which you are no longer habitually and subtly self-condemning, self-punishing or making yourself wrong about anything at all, you will have a much more solid basis from which to explore your PLs.

If you can detach ego from the PL search, you will also understand why other reincarnationists who debunk your claim factually (rather than with just plain contempt -- ignore them) are not attacking you but in fact helping not only you but themselves and the entire reincarnation field. (And you may be sure, that if you are questioned factually and politely and you still feel attacked, that you are allowing your ego to be involved.) The fact is that specious FPL claims damage the credibility of the entire reincarnation field and of people who have genuine FPL claims in particular. If you are a nutjob who spouts all over the internet claiming to have been Cleopatra, you don't just make yourself bad. You make the person who really was Cleopatra look bad, too. (She's out there somewhere, probably having sworn on a stack of Bibles that she will never EVER come out. I wouldn't if I were her.) That is the concern of the debunkers, particularly if they have FPLs of their own.

Understand, if you are afraid of your claim being judged as to its accuracy by other members of the forum, that it already has been. A few posts being open about who you think you were, and everyone already knows whether they believe you or not. (I've usually decided by a paragraph or two into the first post, and it's very rare that subsequent writing proves that decision wrong.) If they think you're a whackjob, they will not say it because it's not polite, but they'll still think it. (I once wrote that of the FPL claims I'd come across on the Internet at that point, I believed only a slim minority -- and I included numbers -- which prompted a friend and FPL claimant to ask me which. I answered basically, "Are you out of your mind? Imagine the poop-storm if I opened that can of worms!") You have to accept this. If you can't, you need to get your self-esteem more solid before you post on about it on forums at all. If you want to know whether someone believes you or not, ask -- BUT ONLY in the spirit of willingness to accept their answer as having validity. If you march in and say "I was so-and-so, I've proved it, so what do you think?" you will NOT get a genuine answer, if you get an answer at all. I personally am willing to share with anyone on this board whether I feel they have sufficient evidence to be reasonably certain about a claim, if they ask in that spirit. (Though sometimes the true answer is "I'm not sure.")

It is common to think that the desired state, in determining PLs, is delight in who you were. "Once I know for sure I was Cleopatra, I'll be on Cloud 9 for the rest of my life." This is actually not what you want. What you are aiming for is total self-acceptance and equanimity. (As I had my healer character say in the book I'm writing: "The person who accepts everything instantly suffers nothing, ever.") The desired state is: "I was Alexander the Great--big furry deal. I am who I am, that's all." (Not there yet... getting closer every day.) It is, "I was Heinrich Himmler, and that's okay--I just am who I am." You ask the Dalai Lama whether he's anything special, and he'll say no, even though he so obviously is--because he's at total self-acceptance and equanimity. (I've seen him say this in an interview.) The desired state is also, "I was never anyone famous--who cares? I am who I am." Self-acceptance means fully understanding that you are acceptable no matter who you were. Extra bonus: get this and you really realize how all people are equals, making it easier to talk to anyone about anything. Extra extra bonus: you'll also never again be bothered by whether anyone else believes you.

For those frustrated with perceived specious claims:

I'm going to concur with Sandra that everyone has the right to take wrong turns on their PL journey. As both Sandra and Phoenix have observed, what Sandra calls "persona identification" and Phoenix calls "storytelling" can be an unavoidable part of PL exploration. People do not, however, have the right to behave obnoxiously on Internet forums. Those who make specious claims tend to not play nicely in the sandbox also, and the two things have the same pathological root -- but they should still be addressed as separate issues on a forum because the one is acceptable whereas the other is not. I suggest being very careful, when objecting to behaviour on this or other forums, to stay away from the issue of accuracy, and deal with it in a separate part of the post or a separate post.

I also suggest making sure you're not bringing the emotional charge you have yourself on the issue of believability into the interaction. (And who doesn't have that emotional charge?) Another very fine line... the credibility of the field and our own individual credibility we have all wrapped together in our heads. However, it's one thing to read someone's post and think, "They're full of crap" when it's obvious -- it's another thing to feel something about it. I'm going to suggest that if you feel something -- anything -- negative, that you ask yourself if it's your own buttons being pushed, and adjust your responding post accordingly. Criticisms of other people's actions are best made unemotionally. Old trick of mine: write your response, then sit on it for 24 hours and look at it again before posting. Chances are you'll do a severe tone-down edit and realize you might have really regretted posting it. Words cannot physically destroy anything, but they can destroy relationships and communities, if the participants allow that to happen.

Hope this helps.

Warmly,
Karen

[Revolucion_bohemia]

Good post. And it`s very true that of if you claim a false FPL you damage the real person who has that genuine FPL. And the credibility of the whole reincarnation community because they`re giving the rest of the world more excuses to look at all of us like wackos. AND i may add that a false claim, and specially a false FPL claim offend the rest of the people with pls in that period, because as i always say "Would you tolerate that an unknown mad guy says everywhere he is your actual father when you know it`s not? then why tolerate it with past life relationships?" (how do you know it`s not? well knowing is never 100% possible, not even with actual things, but with pl things it may be possible)

So well, in conclution, look how many people affects a false FPL claim.

Why does someone claim a false FPL: bad intentions, or mistake. If it`s bad intentions that someone has to be totally banned, of course. If it`s mistake that someone has to strongly learn a little of posting ettiquete which includes 1) if you`re not sure, don t`post , 2) if you posted and had the right to offend all the people listed before then they have right to react and you have to accept the critics 3) learn first, post later, or be humble enough in your posts then. 4) If you have a FPL take your time, honestly i haven`t seen a true FPL claimant that says everything in the first 6 months (at least) of reincarnation internet community interaction.

(And i know that it doesn`t sound good, but treating the wrong people nice, is treating the nice people wrong.)

[Notorious_Gossip]

A thick skin is a necessity when making PL claims, especially FPL's.

People are going to refuse to believe you. That's just part of the fun. oMost because they don't believe in reincarnation, the rest for various reasons.

And you've got two choices. You can either let them put you on the defensive and get upset about it. Or, you can accept that not everyone is going to believe you, and get on with your life.

That's why it's necessary that you do your homework, as I advised to a recent newcomer to the forum. Before making that FPL claim, do your homework.

Not only does your homework convince you, but it also helps you to show other people how you came to the conclusion you did regarding your PL identification. The rest is up to them, and if they don't believe you...Well, you tried. Now, get on with your life.

If being believed by other people is all that matters, then you need to take Karen's advice and separate your ego and self-esteem from your PL identification.

It's also helpful, especially in the credibility area, to allow yourself to be wrong while you are still trying to figure out who and when you lived. "I think", "I feel" or "I believe" all leave the door open to changing your PL identification as your homework indicates that you were someone other than who you thought you were.

I offer as a case in point, one where a person with a FCL (famous current life) made a claim to an FPL. And made a complete fool of himself over it. In this lifetime, I realized I was wrong. I wasn't Heinrich the Fowler, because in one of the memories I have of that period, I can see him across the room sitting at the head table; so if I'm looking at him, I'm not him.

Live and learn,

Phoenix

[Zetascair20086]

I agree this is a good post, it should be on the main page probably with the 13 reasons and belief criteria.

Personally I never felt too strongly about FPL claims, by which I mean they don't flare up my emotions the way they do with some people. Spurious claims do hurt the field yes, but most FPL claiments are not going to write books or get noticed unless they have a really good case. On CPL when initially ridiculed for making claims I was angry at first but more because I was being singled out than anything else. Admittedly when I first discovered alot of my FPLs it was at a time when my anger issues and neurosis in general were strong and all within a short period of time so not a good combo. But I never felt them to be a big deal either for me or others, I don't get the fuss, much as I don't get the fuss made about celebrities in general today, who cares! I only find FPL claims more interesting because you can do closer comparisons making it easier to assess the validity of it. If the person has a good case FPLs can be the most insightful about the reincarnation process as a whole in terms of seeing the connections between lives. If I've learned anything in particular from my own FPLs it is simply about how alot of my problems are just due to a somewhat rigidly consistent oppositional personality i.e. I bring these things on myself and at this point am too stubborn to change so I've just accepted myself as I am, even if I'm not entirely fond of myself . In alot of ways I think the worst brings out the best of me, definately more negatively driven or driven harder when placed in a specific position/role.

Understand, if you are afraid of your claim being judged as to its accuracy by other members of the forum, that it already has been. A few posts being open about who you think you were, and everyone already knows whether they believe you or not. (I've usually decided by a paragraph or two into the first post, and it's very rare that subsequent writing proves that decision wrong.) If they think you're a whackjob, they will not say it because it's not polite, but they'll still think it. (I once wrote that of the FPL claims I'd come across on the Internet at that point, I believed only a slim minority -- and I included numbers -- which prompted a friend and FPL claimant to ask me which. I answered basically, "Are you out of your mind? Imagine the poop-storm if I opened that can of worms!") You have to accept this.

Delusional claiments are usually pretty obvious pretty quick, maybe not by the first or second paragragh, but yeah I agree by the first post or two I've already largely formed an opinion on whether or not I believe the person. I try not to rush to judgement but the first overall impression usually is accurate. It partly also depends on how familiar I am with the life being claimed as well. If the person comes across as a bit unbalanced I give leeway if it's consistent with who their claiming to be! I have a good knowledge of history but alot of the times when a new claiment comes here I have to wiki the person they are claiming to be, which dispels the notion everyone is recalling household names. Most of my own are fairly obscure though it varies alot based on who I'm talking to. Most of my FPLs were nationally reknown figures but not known in a broad sense. Most of them get about a paragragh if anything in US/World history books if anything, though in their own regions alot are pretty big fish, fame is relative. My belief in a person's claim also has a bit of personal bias I'll admit. A good many of those I believe I believe cause I either knew them in their FPLs and we have collaboration or I lived in the time and place so their accounts rings of authenticity, captures the mood/feel of the times.

For the record I believe most of the heavy posters on FPLs here. It's hard for a detailed lie to be maintained for any long stretch of time with consistency and coherence as found here. I've been following most of the major posters here on various different lists and forums since the start of the journey and I'm largely convinced. For what it's worth if anyone here is wrong about their claim or lying you've fooled me . At any rate if your trying to play the part of the personalities your claiming you've all done an oscar worthy job .

On a personal level I don't talk much about my own FPLs or even regular PLs in detail on forums or if I do I often don't name names, I'm still a bit shy about claiming multiple FPLs so prefer to obscure the name and just say what they were instead of who. Most of the discussion of details has been one on one or in private with others I knew in that life. I'm not really secretive about it though, I mean I have a public blog about it so anyone interested to read my accounts and judge for themselves can do so, although the memories on my blog are not complete and not all of my claimed lives are even mentioned in detail. Occasionally I'll get lucky and be contacted by someone who knew me though, with mixed results, but mostly positive. Again, don't ask don't tell. If someone else brings it up or asks questions I'll discuss it with them but if no one else brings it up I won't usually. I haven't paid much more attention to the FPLs than the regular ones honestly, I don't feel the need to advertize myself, I'm just a private person in general. If I ever get famous again I'd be reclusive and not think much of that status(beyond googling myself!) as it really doesn't affect my day to day life, I just am who I am. Most here have taken the opposite approach and focused in great detail on their best documented lives. My approach has been to try and get the basic details of many lives rather than focus on the details of a few IDed lives, although those lives are the most insightful ones. Aside from Jill, whose not really a FPL but whose picture I keep with me, I don't think about my FPLs terribly often. To me their just a few lives of very very many that I've explored in detail. In alot of cases I've barely thought of them since their discovery. In reading back through old journals prior to their discovery I feel reaffirmed to find forgotten memories I wrote down consistent with what I now know.

If I had to guess my standing on the believability list I'll be optimistic and guess I'm most likely on the "I'm not sure" list with most. I recall alot of FPLs and don't say enough about them for most to make a firm assessment either way and I'm sure some come across as stronger claims than other ones. I'm doubtful anyone believes all of them, including me, it's a work in process but not one I stress myself over. Reading some of my early CPL posts about this topic I must admit even I think I sounded like a bit of a whackjob but since then I think I've become more balanced about it. I think only with those I actually knew in my lives in question and shared colloboratory memories with would I be firmly on the "believe for sure" list. My material is lengthy, disorganized and scattered so it's hard for most to follow. I'd say the jury's still out for most. But I respect everyone's opinion here so if anyone thinks I'm wrong or delusional I would not be offended to be told so as I've been told so much less politely elsewhere.